Posts by moggy lover

55

To the "Believers" - A Sincere Question...

by AGuest in

to: "non-believers" (i am speaking to the "adult" among you as there are some who simply won't be able to resist... and you know who you are), i would like to ask that you please refrain from commenting, if you would be so kind.

if possible, it would be greatly appreciated if you would hold your comments for another thread, please.

thank you... and may you have peace!.

moggy lover

Your question assumes two things and these make your question loaded in favour of your own personal creed.

1 We do not "choose" to put faith in the Bible, but we do put faith in Him who is the substance of our faith. Jesus Christ. [2 Tim 1:13] The Bible is an extension of such faith but is not the substance of it. The Bible does not save nor does a study of it do so. Only Jesus does. [Jo 5:39]

As Christians we accept the fact that none of us has the Absolute Interpretation of Scripture, hence we accept a variety of interpretive ministries in those parts of Scripture that are not contingent on salvation, although, on those parts that are there is a remarkable and harmonious amity.

We believe, despite its problems, textual, and polemical, that the Bible contains the Word of God, and is inspired and is profitable for teaching, reproof, correction, and training in righteousness. [2 Tim 3:16] But nobody becomes righteous by either reading or studying the Bible as if it somehow possesses Talmudic complexities that need to be divined. Righteousness is a gift [Rom 5:17] that is miraculously given to believers who have faith in Jesus Christ. [Ro 3:22]

2 You further imply that instead, believers ought to put their faith in "The Holy Spirit, who is the Son of God, and the Holy One of Israel". This sounds like a complicated system of Oneness Theology which sees The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit as one person.

I do not intend to go down this road, but suffice it to say, that faith in Christ implies faith in the Father and the Holy Spirit equally, though Scripture portrays them as separate Persons, or centers of consciousness. We have faith in the Father as the Originator of salvation, in Christ as the Means of it, and the Holy Spirit as the Enlightener of salvation. There is no rivalry for our faith in heaven.

14

Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 11-01-09 WT Study (ATTITUDE)

by blondie in

jw
friends

comments you will not hear at the 11-01-09 wt study (september 15, 2009, pages 7-11)(christ's attitude).

review comments will be in red or headed by comments.

wt material from today's wt will be in black.

moggy lover

Great work, pal.

Will you be doing the two other articles that this study refers to?

2

The Bible And the People (PDF)

by Bangalore in

the bible and the people.(pdf).

download link : http://rapidshare.com/files/253521034/j5654574575745.rar .

bangalore.

moggy lover

Cannot open the file to read. I get a message saying Windows cannot read this file.

32

Memories of 8 day conventions

by monkeyman in

jw
friends

i dont know if this has been talked about before but i've seen it recently mentioned so i thought i'd ask and get the good and bad dirt.. first, who was the nut who thought this up?

8 days????

are you kidding me?

moggy lover

Was the 1958 assembly eight days?

I remember going to it because I was all of 16, had just been baptized the year before, and like the eager beaver I was, I scurried around doing all I could to give a hand. Mostly I was in the washing up brigade. The motto was: First in, last out, and it seemed like it.

We had to get in early to set everything up, and then dismantle everything for the washing up after eating. I must have loved it if I can't remember it being eight days. I have always felt in the vague recesses of my memory, that it was five days. Oh well, the ole memory isn't what it used to be.

I....I.... crumbs!.... I've forgotten what I was saying....OK OK... Just kidding just kidding.

I remember at least two publications that were released. There was the Daniel book, "Your Will be Done on Earth" and "From Paradise Lost to Paradise Regained" It was a release particularly designed for children due to its many rather crude illustrations, and in retrospect, means it was in fact designed for the mass rank and file.

I remember being among the vast herd of Watchtower followers who plagued the local newstand after each day, especially the day of the baptism because the local news would print a special edition for those who were "delegates" at the assembly.

It was great to be young, child-like, innocent and alive at that time, and magic to believe what only in later years we came to realize was a web of deceit, woven by a conniving leadership.

11

if the GB was female....?

by highdose in

jw
friends

just a wandering thought, what kind of religon would the jw's be if the situation was reversed and the gb was all female, only women could hold postions of power in the cong etc....?.

over to you my freinds....

moggy lover

All KHs would be painted pink.

8

Is the GB Representational?

by Simon Morley in

jw
friends

if the gb represent all "tribes, peoples and tongues" how come they are top heavy with us members?

if you take the 2008 ww report, taking the countries with the largest publisher count, assuming the law of averages, "impartaility" and a gb of 12, the make up would be:.

2 likely from the usa; 1 likely from brazil; 1 likely from mexico; 1 likely from either italy/japan/germany; 1 likely from either phillipines/russia/congo/zambia; 1 likely from either ukraine/columbia/argentina/britain and 1 likely from somewhere in the rest of the world.

moggy lover

I don't think that nationality is the only issue. There is also the thorny question of racial representation. And language. It is obvious that Jehovah has a greater love for non caucasian peoples since there are so many of 'em. Maybe something like:

2 caucasians [1 English speaking, and 1 multi European speaking. [Possibly skilled in German/French/Spanish/ Dutch would be ideal]

3 African/American, or simply African if from outside America, only one of whom would be English speaking.

2 Hispanic, 1 Spanish speaking, I Portugese, [to represent Brazil]

2 Asian, one speaking Japanese, and one Korean.

That will make up the currently constituted 9 member GB.

Now we have to look at the female population who make up some 55% of the Watchtower census. 5 women, 4 men again distributed through the grids shown above.

It is interesting to note that the SDAs have 3 women and every continental group represented in their 10 member International Presidency. But then they don't have this "anointed" humbug to protect.

7

District Convention's - Control Freaks

by xelder in

since for many years i served at many levels of convention administration for 5000-6000 attendance (small conventions), i think back and shake my head at the control freak policies.

do any of you remember?

when i used to attend 8 day conventions, (3 sessions a day 9:00-12:00 1:30-4:30 6:00-9:00) departments were huge to organize.

moggy lover

I don't really remember any eight day conventions, but I do remember sometime in the 60s attending what I recall being a six day assembly. Otherwise all the DAs I attended were either three and a half days, [beginning Thursday afternoon, till Sunday night] or four days, if they were International conventions.

[What happened to them anyway? Do they still have them? With Watchtower flunkies jetting around the world on discount air flight tickets]

It wasn't just the work during the blasted things, it was all the preparatory work that went into making all the parts function smoothly.

I must have been nuts.

19

Wish to debunk Witness God's Org Concept

by Luo bou to in

i wish to reach my ex who is heavily entrenched in the org.

i intend to argue along these lines using the parable of the wheat and the weeds.

that jesus knows those that belong to him and today they are scattered throughout the different denominations of christendom.

moggy lover

If you are going to use the parable of the wheat and the weeds, it may be best to know the Watchtower "explanation" for this parable.

Commenting on Matt 13:24-43, this is what they write in their Trinity brochure page 9: "Jesus himself explained what was behind this falling away from true worship. He said that he had sowed good seeds but that the enemy Satan would oversow the field with weeds. Thus a deviation from true Christianity was to be expected until the harvest"

All this is under the subheading "Apostasy Foretold", and as one can see, the "exposition" provided is to satisfy the Watchtower abhorrence of what they call "apostates". That's us, by the way. The Watchtower is telling us here that Jesus foretold a time when many who once bowed down before the Governing Body of the Watchtower would fall away. Hmmm...The question is: Is that what the parable is about?

You are going to have a tough time convincing your wife otherwise, if as you say she is in deep in the organization, since what the Watchtower says is regarded as gospel truth. But you may consider:

1 The word apostasy is not even mentioned in the parable, neither is its concept.

2 In order for those who symbolize the weeds, to be "apostates" it must first be shown that they were wheat originally, and then became weeds. This is absurd, as the parable shows. The wheat are always wheat, and the weeds are always weeds. It is obvious that what Jesus is referring to are not apostates, but counterfeit Christians. They will always look like wheat, and act like wheat and talk like wheat, but they are still weeds.

3 Thus ever since the birth of Christianity there will be counterfeits proposing all sorts of ideas, and naming all sorts of names, but that of Christ, these will be identified in the end.

4 The Watchtower teaches that by the 2nd century AD, a major apostasy broke out in Christianity, and the first evidence of this was the removal of the name "Jehovah" from the NT manuscripts, and the corresponding emphasis given, unjustifiably, mind you, to the name of Jesus. This apostasy would last 18 centuries, during which time True Christianity would disappear, except for scattered groups of unnamed true worshipers. This situation would last till 1879, when CT Russell would start the Watchtower system of belief.

5 If this is what the parable of the wheat and the weeds symbolizes, then: the wheat would have to completely disappear to be overrun by the weeds. This is simply not so. The wheat stands tall and unconquered, it is never overrun by the weeds. In fact the weeds are kept isolated, so that they may be burnt in the Day of the Harvest. This parallels Jesus promise to His church that it would never yield to any outside force. Despite its imperfections, despite its inner quarrels, despite it all, it will always exist as a free institute under Christ.

6 It must be noted that True Christians have no part in the harvest work. That belongs to Christ alone. It is not our place to persecute or in any way physically abuse these counterfeits. They must have their day.[Matt 13:42]

Hope this helps.

Cheers.

45

Resurrection or re-creation?

by teel in

this thing (along with jehovah's capability to know everything before, wich leads to predetermination) bothered me the most while i was a practicant jw, and the topic of jws mourning brought it back to me.

maybe someone could shed a light on how jws cope with this problem.

i've seen this mentioned at other places too, so it's not just me who thought of this problem.. as we all know, jw doctrine tells that absolutely nothing survives the death.

moggy lover

It is true that the Watchtower leadership and its followers have not really thought this thing through to its logical conclusion, but instead plod along on a whole series of assumptions.

1 The Watchtower teaches that death results in annihilation, that is, being reduced to nothing. A dead person is as much nothing as he/she was before he/she was born

2 God cannot resurrect nothing. Why? Because there is nothing to resurrect in the first place. This is not to say that He cannot create them, or even recreate them from nothing. But resurrect? Nope. If God could resurrect out of nothing then He could square a circle, or create a stone so heavy that He couldn't lift it.

Can God resurrect Luke Skywalker, or the Lone Ranger? Nope. Why? Because neither actually exist. They are nothing. Can He create them if he wished? Yes. But that is not resurrection.

3 So what the Watchtower teaches, and what the rank and file believe, is recreation which by some curious alchemy that defies logic, they regard as resurrection. As you mentioned above, a recreation is a copy of the original, but not the original. My advice to all Watchtower followers is to enjoy this life, because this is all you get. Once you die, only a non-biological, empty series of memories of you remain, to be implanted into a copy of you that has no conscious link to you, except by implication.

4 In order for the person to be resurrected, there has to be a clear biological and organic link to to the original. You can call this enduring link a "soul" a "spirit" an "id" "ego" whatever, but that link must survive physical death to make resurrection meaningful.

5 The most demonic aspect of this recreation teaching is what they have done to Jesus. According to the Watchtower, when Jesus died for "parts of three days" he too, was reduced to nothingness. Thus, "parts of three days" later, since there was nothing of Jesus to resurrect, the god of the Watchtower, recreated a copy of Jesus, call this copy Jesus mark2, and simply poured the inanimate remaining memories of the original Jesus into the copy. So the jerk who is prancing about in the heavenly realms at the moment, enjoying the benefits of immortal life, did nothing to earn his immortality. The Original, who did earn this has vanished into nothing.

Sad.

34

Do You Need to Learn Hebrew and Greek? (WT 11/01/09)

by Midget-Sasquatch in

i'm sure quite a few of you on the board remember the km that discouraged learning the biblical languages.

well, here are scans of this newer article from the nov public wt.

very boring read with little direct prohibitions (understandable since its for outsiders), but still a bit of an eye roller with their reasons for not bothering to learn them.

moggy lover

No, I believe one does not need to undertake such a study if one is moved, by some motivational impulse, to accept the Bible as a book of Christian values and perceptions. Perfectly acceptable translations are available reflecting differing viewpoints, from extreme conservative to extremely liberal. I believe we must have the right to investigate the competence and the value judgments that these translators brought to their work. A so-called "translator" of the Bible who comes to my door but who refuses to devulge either his identity or proof of competence, better be quick to change his mind before I get off my couch and throw the bum out.

Having said that, however, if someone is moved by some motivational impulse to do such a study, I believe we ought to encourage such an individual. There will never be enough men and women competent in these ancient languages. Their creativity and collective wisdom will always be welcome in the rich world of Christian debate and discussion.

If I may be indulged a personal recollection.

I Recall telling my CO in confidence that I had this indefinable urge to study NT Greek. [Hebrew was an unfathomable mystery to me] It was something I could neither explain nor expand on, although I rather suspected that I did have reason enough. I did not tell him that I was becoming suspicious of the writing style of the NW "T" and that I was beginning to suspect that this "translation" was in fact merely a transcription into Watchtowerese, the patois spoken at Bethel HQ, from another English Version.

Rather than being encouraging, he was alarmed and tried various persuasions to deter me. He used incentives such as an implied promise of higher responsibilities, to dire warnings of official retribution, none of which worked. This was back in 1980, when I was younger and had a lot more spunk than I have now. I did do such a study in our local Bible college at night school over two years, without of course telling him. I never regretted it. Ever.

It was enough however, to convince me that the "translators" of NW "T" had produced their version simply for the purpose of transforming the Bible from an independent voice into a pliant whore, using it to make it say whatever they wanted it to say.

Oddly enough, I know less about the NT and the richness of its revelation than when I first started this study almost a generation ago.

Hmmmm..Lessee...where does the predicate go at 2Tim 3:16? Isit "All Scripture is inspired", or isit "All inspired scripture is.." Ahhh well... Mabel? watsferlunch?